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by | 08, Sep 2022

Book Deep-Dive: The Hard Thing About Hard Things

What’s the hardest part of starting and growing a business? Is it managing a large group of people? Making sure everyone is on the same page? How about laying people off? Ben Horowitz analyzes the problems that confront leaders every day, sharing the insights he’s gained developing, managing, selling, buying, investing in, and supervising technology companies. Being a lifelong rap fan, he amplifies business lessons with lyrics from his favorite songs, telling it straight about everything from firing friends to poaching competitors, cultivating and sustaining a CEO mentality to knowing the right time to cash in.

Remember, with each episode, we will provide a helpful Deep-Dive infographic where we break down the entire book on to 1 page! And we finally have a link for you to find all of them! Visit invictusmultifamily.com/notes to find all of the sophisticated investor notes!

Here are our top 10 takeaways:

  1. Tell It Like It Is
  2. Clarity
  3. Lay-Off’s
  4. Doing The Firing
  5. Accountability VS Creativity
  6. Don’t Quit
  7. Silver Bullets
  8. Rewarding Problems

Tweetable Quotes:

“Persistence will win at the end of the day in the majority of business scenarios, where as long as you don’t quit, you haven’t lost.”  – Anthony Vicino

“A lot of the time, a lot of people are running around looking for quick fixes. When in reality, they just need to buckle down, do the work day in and day out.”  – Dan Krueger

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five rules of investing

The Five Rules of Investing

** Transcripts

The Hard Thing

[00:00:00] Anthony: Hey, welcome to multifamily investing made simple. I’m your host, Anthony Vino of Invictus capital joined as always by Dan, uh, reads books. A lot. Kruger. Hello, how’d you? I did read a book. Did you like. I dig deep for that one. I mean, I could

[00:00:28] Dan: tell you’re really scraped the bottom of the barrel. I’m not gonna lie.

[00:00:31] Anthony: I am scraping through the barrel at this point. Yeah. I no longer have a barrel. I just have a hoop. Yeah. I think you’re just in the dirt. I’m just in the dirt. Yeah. These, these nicknames are getting bad people. So, uh, today, as we always do on this day, we’re gonna talk about a book. We’re gonna talk about a book that was intriguing.

Maybe bringing you some value, maybe save you some time so that you don’t have to go read the book. So. Uh, Dan, [00:01:00] what book we

[00:01:00] Dan: doing? Yes. The hard thing about hard things sounds hard. Hz Benjamin. He actually, wasn’t a tough read. He’s a, he was a good bug. I think he was well written. Mm-hmm , um, lot of good information, uh, a lot of good stories.

This guy has had a very interesting life. So

[00:01:17] Anthony: yeah, I, I actually can’t remember. Exactly what he did. I just know he started a bunch of companies exited successfully, uh, that this book is it’s been, it was recommended by a lot of, I would say high level entrepreneurs. Like I think harmo Naval has recommended it.

And so that kind of carries a lot of weight and I’ll be honest. Uh, actually one of my business, my past business partners recommended it too. Somebody I hold in high regard. I was just expecting a lot more actually

[00:01:45] Dan: from the book. That’s probably why every, it was so hyped up. I mean, yeah, for me, it wasn’t hyped up.

I’m just like, oh, here’s a book. That’s on the list. Let’s read it. And I thought it was good, but I didn’t come into it with any like

[00:01:54] Anthony: expectations really. So I, I came into a such high expectations cuz I hold so many of those people in high [00:02:00] regard that when I read it, I was like, this is gonna be world changing.

It’s gonna like fundamentally change the way I look at everything. And there was things I was like, oh yeah, yeah, I agree with that. And some things, I was like, oh, that’s interesting. But none of it really hit super different. I guess that was, that was interesting for me. But, um, but I do think it’s worth reading.

I think there’s some take some takeaways here that we’ll be able to share with listeners that will

[00:02:23] Dan: resonate. Yeah. And this is really a book for people who are, uh, either trying to be, or currently are a CEO or, you know, in charge of an organization. Right. That’s really the audience that this is written for.

Yeah. So if that’s you great, if. Um, you know, maybe just do the, uh, sophisticated notes and probably don’t devote however many hours to read the whole thing.

[00:02:43] Anthony: Yeah. I would say if you are not an entrepreneur business owner person, you could tune up this episode. Um, just make sure that you drop over to iTunes real quick and leave a five star review because obviously I just see you.

It’s gonna be good. I just saved you some time, so you don’t have to listen to this whole, whole podcast episode. So, so you. um, but if you’re an [00:03:00] entrepreneur, I think there’s some things in here that are definitely worth hearing. And, um, as always, we will put these into the sophisticated investor notes, which you can download by going to Invictus multifamily.com/notes.

At this point, there’s gotta be 20 notes in there, and they’re just infographics, single page breakdowns of the book so that you don’t have to read the whole thing yourself. That that’s, that’s worth a lot. I’ll be honest. Like I just, if a book takes eight hours to read, you could consume one of these notes in like five seconds.

[00:03:27] Dan: Okay, maybe starting next week. We’re gonna charge an entrance fee. So you guys better go get ’em all now. Is that true? No. Are we should I’m down. They’re really valuable. All right.

[00:03:35] Anthony: Starting next week. Uh, it’s gonna be 29 99. Um, one time value or maybe we do like a three part payment system. What do you think?

Or maybe

[00:03:42] Dan: just take donations. Like if you like it, you know, um,

[00:03:45] Anthony: oh, sign up for my Patreon. My only. Can can, can, what are you guys laughing at? I don’t understand. I

[00:03:54] Dan: mean, that’s Invictus can have a known my fans can’t think

[00:03:57] Anthony: it does

[00:03:57] Dan: actually. We have fans. It’s just a bunch of [00:04:00] nude buildings, nude. Mm-hmm why are they nude?

It’s only fans.

[00:04:03] Anthony: I

[00:04:04] Dan: I’m confused. I think you’re doing only fans wrong.

[00:04:07] Anthony: I don’t have any fans yet. Are

[00:04:08] Dan: you just posting these videos on only fans?

[00:04:10] Anthony: Yes. . It’s all about distributing far and wide, right? Like trying new marketing strategies there, you. Wait, is this why nobody is it? Cuz we’re closed that nobody cares.

Yes.

[00:04:19] Dan: All right, listeners, we have one

[00:04:20] Anthony: follower and it’s, here’s the deal. If, uh, if you want us to lose a layer, um, go over to iTunes and leave us a review, let us know and uh, or leave a comment to wherever you’re watching this. Let us know in the comments and you know what? I got a layer I could lose. You do.

You’re wearing I’m

[00:04:36] Dan: I’m and it’s like 90 degrees

[00:04:38] Anthony: outside right now. Yes, but you know why I wear this? Cuz it’s freezing in here because it makes me look cool. Yeah, sweaty, but cool. Anywho. stinky. Anywho. Okay. Let’s get into this book. Let’s get into the hard thing about hard things by Benjamin Horowitz. Uh, what’s your number one?

What’s what’s your, what’s your first takeaway? First one on the list in no particular. Oh no. It’s a four page notes. This time

[00:04:59] Dan: [00:05:00] is okay. CEO should tell it like it is. Um, basically he just, uh, talks about how, and I can relate to this quite a bit. You tend to, as, as a leader in a company, always want to be, you know, positive.

You always want to create a good environment. And it’s, I think stemming from a place one, you create a good culture in your company. But he tells you that you need to be open and very transparent about all the struggles in your business with the entire company. Uh, for a few reasons. One is that people, uh, need to trust you.

And if you hide the issues, hide the problems. Uh, the first problem is. You could lose trust. Uh, another issue is that you might actually, or not might, but you won’t have all the minds engaged on trying to solve that problem. So you’re doing yourself and everybody in your company into service. If you just walk around with big, happy face all the time with, uh, you know, sunshine and rainbows, when there’s an issue that needs to be solved.

So you need to be open and transparent about it. So you can have all hands on deck and you’ll get more respect for it. It’s an

[00:05:58] Anthony: interesting balance [00:06:00] that you have to strike. I think. On one hand, don’t want Debbie down. You don’t want, you don’t wanna set the alarms off and freak everybody out because especially when you’re starting a company, um, everybody already knows it’s a fragile thing.

And a lot of times people are looking if they’re, if they’re a WT employee, a lot of times they’re looking for security. And once you start talking about the companies on the edge of death and all these things, like don’t use those words. You’re concern. Yeah. Yeah. Your worry as a CEO is like, oh, they’re gonna leave me.

So, but I do. I think there’s a lot of value in sharing the, the mental load. Because then people can start looking for solutions. And if you keep it all to yourself, cause you’ve seen this all the time where CEOs I’ll come in on a Monday, all bright eye bushy-tailed smiles and like their employees think it’s, it’s the best thing ever.

And then by lunch everybody’s been fired. Because they’re like, oh yeah, you didn’t know. We ran outta money two weeks ago. Yeah. And like the CEO just never let on. And

[00:06:47] Dan: I think that we do a pretty good job of this right now, honestly. Well, we do our, we follow the traction framework and so we have our L tens every Monday.

And we’ll always talk about kind of the, the issues of the day and what, what we’re trying to solve [00:07:00] for and try to get all hands on deck.

[00:07:01] Anthony: Yeah. And every, every Monday it’s we need more money. Yeah. We need more money, more problems. Yeah, where I re cough it up. Yeah.

[00:07:09] Dan: where do

[00:07:09] Anthony: you got? Here’s my here’s my first takeaway.

Um, I got my phone here with my notes, so I’m not on, I’m just not texting, but I’m yeah, I am sometimes an organization doesn’t need a solution. It just needs clarity. I think that’s really simple takeaway that, um, hit really close to home. Honestly, at escape, we used to really struggle getting people rowing in the same direction.

Even getting people in the same boat seemed like a struggle. And we kept calming up with like convoluted structures and systems and frameworks. And like at the end of the day, what it came down to was that we weren’t being clear. This was really interesting. We sat down with some of our higher level employees at one point, and we were like, why is the message not getting through, like, what’s happening here?

Why are we struggling so much? And then , I remember, um, one of our, one of our, our, our production. Uh, our production manager, he looked at us and he [00:08:00] is like, well, the problem is you guys change directions every week. And we were like, did you, well, this was interesting, cuz from me my, my partner perspective, we were like, no, we’re not, we’re all we’ve been rowing towards the same objective, but we’re just navigating around rocks as we go.

Like that’s what they’re feeling. Right. But people on the team didn’t necessarily understand that. And so

[00:08:25] Dan: what’s they, but they didn’t know like the long term.

[00:08:27] Anthony: Well, yeah, like we, weren’t doing a good job of connecting the short term pivot to get around those rocks with the long term objective, which is like, Hey, we’re still in the same river going the same.

And, but they just felt the whiplash constant. And so it’s like when you’re the captain of the boat and you just start like turning the rudder on people and they’re like, what the heck is going on here? Like, that’s what we were doing unknowingly. And, um, so once we got clear and we started articulating, okay, here’s how, like this pivot, like pivot coming pivot.

Uh it’s it’s incoming. So then people weren’t taking aback by it. And [00:09:00] then they were able to connect it with the goal moving forward. And like the team just became way more cohesive. We had a lot less friction. It was it just stemmed from being more clear,

[00:09:08] Dan: honestly. Yeah. Yeah. It’s tough because I think you kind of just assume that, or maybe you don’t assume, but like, you feel like it’s so clear to you.

Yes. That like a really kind of basic explanation should suffice, but in reality it takes, I think a long time and a lot of revisiting and a lot of, um, repetition for that to really. Sink in and really be understood.

[00:09:30] Anthony: Yeah, totally. With, um, with partners in a business. It’s really interesting. Cause like you and I, or you know, me and Ryan will sit and we’ll, we’ll talk about things a lot before we actually do the thing.

Mm-hmm , you know, so we spent a lot of time unpack and living with the consequences and like preparing for the thing. But then when you just like foisted on the, the, the people, um, they’re like they haven’t been in those conversations, so it’s completely new and foreign and they’re like, what the heck has just happened here?

Mm-hmm

[00:09:55] Dan: I like it. Um, My next one is, uh, on the [00:10:00] section that was talking about how to the right way to, to lay people off. Um, Now I, this one was, was interesting to me because I realized we’ve never been in a situation where we’ve had to lay people off. Um, obviously there’s been, uh, people over the years that haven’t been a good fit and we’ve had to terminate people, but at least the way I interpret the way the word layoff it’s because there’s some sort of budget issue.

There’s a shortfall money and people need to go for, for that reason. Not because they’re, they’re actually, um, Not because they’re, they’re unwanted, but because you don’t have the money to pay you, so you need to leave.

[00:10:34] Anthony: I’m sorry. Did you, did you see the guy recently on LinkedIn? The CEO, the crying CEO. Did you see this?

I don’t think so. No Reed re saw this. Probably a lot of our listeners saw this too. So a couple of weeks ago, this was a, a classic example of what not to do. Oh, okay. In this situation where he had to come in, he had to lay off a bunch of people. And then he went and took to, to LinkedIn, took a picture of himself crying, posted it, and then wrote this big, long post about that’s pretty.

This is the most, this is the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do. This is the most [00:11:00] vulnerable. Thing I’m ever gonna share. And it was all about how he had to lay off these employees and how it was all his fault. And sure. His employees would say like, no, no, no, we, we made these decisions together. We’re in it together.

Um, but he’s like at the end of the day, I know it was on me and it’s like, It was so cringy. Yeah. Uh, a lot of it, because it’s like his ugly crying face, which he took time to set up a ring light. Like you could see it reflecting in his eyes. Like somebody in the comments is like, so dis did you set up a cam?

Like, did you take time to set up lighting to get this picture

[00:11:28] Dan: fun? Yeah.

[00:11:30] Anthony: So I’m sorry, laying off is I imagine very, very difficult, but yeah, we get around

[00:11:34] Dan: to do it. And that’s the thing is, um, you know, the author talked about, I forgot who he was talking to, but, um, someone in kind of the venture capital world was looking at his company and saying, Hey, that’s so crazy that you guys have gone through like three rounds of layoffs over the years.

And you’re still here because typically, you know, uh, you know, any one round of layoffs is, is a pretty big red flag. It’s not very common. The companies really thrive after that. Kind of tough to come back from, but he equated that, [00:12:00] uh, the reason that they were still around to being able to do it effectively and it’s, it’s not easy, but you know, a few of the things he said were, you know, you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta know who you’re talking to, how to talk to them because you’ve gotta address the company as a whole.

You’ve gotta do it quickly. You’ve gotta recognize that, that you screwed up. Like, no, don’t go post on LinkedIn for the world to see you talk. Yourself and cry, no, talk to the people and you’ve, you’ve gotta respect them and say, here’s, what’s going on. We screwed up, we ran outta money. We love all of you, but because we screwed up, you know, so that this is a going concern.

We’ve gotta, you know, let you guys go. Um, and so he, he walked, he talked about this in more detail, but I, this was a takeaway for me because, you know, I hope we don’t ever have to do. Um, I don’t think we will, but if we ever did, I, I don’t wanna be that guy on LinkedIn crying. Uh, I wanna be the, the one that actually does it effectively.

I’m gonna be because sometimes that’s the only way to keep a, a company alive. If there’s some sort of cataclysmic event, I’m gonna

[00:12:58] Anthony: be sitting there Facebook, liveing it. So you [00:13:00] guys just wait, it’s coming. But I think this one of the really interesting things when reading this book, cause I had never gone through this scenario either, but.

It makes sense why companies don’t survive that layoff isn’t necessarily because of the people leaving or like, because the company was in financial hardship that led to the layoff it’s because it breaks the morale of the people who stay right. Like to see their friends and people that they like leave.

And then suddenly they’re like, wait, am I next? And so you can imagine going through three rounds of that would be incredibly difficult, which ties into my, my fifth takeaway, which is that like everybody, uh, he, he says this in the book much more eloquently. and all the business books, they always talk about how, like the hardest part is like setting the big audacious goal and the hiring and like all this stuff.

And he’s like, no, no, no. The hardest part is like the firing sitting down and telling somebody like they, they no longer have a place on the team. And the, the hardest part is having employees who, you know, like, and trust and love becoming entitled and suddenly making out lunch requests and like navigating those scenarios.

He’s like most books never talk about that stuff much less [00:14:00] how to go about doing those things. In a humane way that keeps the team together, moving in the same direction. And in my experience, um, those, those are not the hardest things in the macro sense of like day in, day out, because you very seldomly.

If you’re doing things correctly, have to let people go and you very seldomly ideally have to sit and reprimand employees like that very hopefully is very rare. But it’s a very acute pain when you do have to do it. And like, it is a horrible feeling to it’s like breaking up with somebody, right? Like nobody wants to be the breaker upper it’s much better at that point to try and force the other person to break up with you.

Cause that, because then at least like, you know, you can, you can go out and rebound and nobody can judge you cuz like you’re emotionally broken. So, uh, but you can’t do that in business. Like you can, you can’t afford to sit around like hoping the person will break it off and leave. In a very real way.

Their existence is jeopardizing [00:15:00] the, the survival of the rest of the CR of the

[00:15:01] Dan: team. Mm-hmm I will say that I’ve, um, I, I, we’ve had to cancel people over the years that have been, you know, not a right fit, not the right fit for whatever reason. And it doesn’t matter if they deserve it, or even when somebody really deserves to not be there anymore, because it’s just such a bad fit and it’s, it’s bad for them and everybody else, it still sucks.

Still really sucks. Yep. But my next one I’m, it’s not actually my next one. I’m gonna jump to it because it’s very closely related to what you just said. And it was the section on, uh, the most difficult, uh, CEO skill. Um, like what’s the toughest part and you kind of alluded to, uh, a decent amount of it there, which was, you basically are always gonna have to choose between like horrible.

If you’ve got a set of options to, uh, to choose from, it’s usually horrible option number two, or number one, um, cataclysmic option number two, and just the worst option number. Like they’re all, it’s usually all [00:16:00] bad things you get to choose from, right? There’s no like clear cut path to prosperity. You’ve gotta make really tough decisions.

And it’s, it’s. it’s tough. It’s really emotionally tough. And it’s not talked about, uh, very often out there. Um, most people don’t talk about kind of the mental anguish that, that, that, that individual needs to go through having to select from this, you know, crummy set of options all the time, and even threw a line in there from, uh, fight club, which was, I forgot exactly how I was phrased, but it was like the first rule of having a mental breakdown as a CEO is you don’t talk about it.

And second rule is you don’t talk about it. Right. and he is. And the, the point he was making with the section, which, which really resonated with me was that it sucks for everybody. There is no blueprint, there’s no map, there’s no book you can read. That’s gonna tell you how to effectively, uh, be a CEO and lead a company.

Everybody goes into it and has to do things that they don’t know how to do initially. And it’s really hard and it, and it sucks. And no one really talks about that. Mm-hmm you see Instagram with people posting, everything looks great. They’ve got their Lambo in [00:17:00] their garage. Everyone’s got their Lambo.

It’s everyone. They, they make it look great, but it’s, it’s a slug Fest,

[00:17:06] Anthony: right? Again, this one ties into one of my next takeaways. So I’ll just like jump into it is if you are going to eat shit, don’t nibble. And I was like, that’s aggressive, it’s aggressive. but I think there’s a lot of truth in it. Yeah. Is like, there’s a lot of job.

There’s a lot of parts of the job where you’re gonna have to do something that really sucks. Don’t beat around the Bush. Just get in there, get the work, get it done. and move on as quickly as possible. like eat the poop, get your mouthwash. Wipe off your tears and get back to work. And so I, I, that’s an image.

It’s an image, but it’s, I think it’s true because there’s a lot of times in this bus, in this world of entrepreneurship where it’s, it’s so hard and that’s why most businesses fail. That’s why most people don’t even venture down this. And I like to talk about how everybody should build a business and invest in real estate.

But the reality is like most people are not cut out to really build a business. [00:18:00] Like, uh, it’s it’s it’s for the few in the, in the crazy. And if you’re one of those people, you’re just gonna have to accept the fact that you’re not as good as you think you are, or as good as you want to be. And therefore there will be times when you’re gonna have to eat shit.

Yeah. And so suck it up and grab your spoon.

[00:18:18] Dan: Yeah, exactly. Um, next one I got was the, um, solving the accountability versus creativity paradox. And um, this one I pulled out. It really kind of boiled down to the process versus re results kind of paradox where, um, it may not be entirely clear at any one time, how to effectively lead your team if maybe they’re doing all the right things.

But the outcome is, is bad because on one hand, if you reward people for a crummy outcome, even when they did all the things, right, the rest of the team might perceive that as you know, you rewarding failure. On the other hand, if somebody has a great outcome, but they did the wrong things. [00:19:00] Do you reprimand them for doing the wrong things or reward them for getting the good outcome?

And it’s, it’s not an easy question to answer, but I think you did a pretty good job of kind of breaking down how to. Evaluate that situation. And it’s very nuanced. You’re gonna have to factor in who the person is. How long have they been there? If they’re newer, maybe they get a little leeway on being off on some of their projections.

If they’re more senior, you’ve gotta be a little bit more stringent, but, uh, this kind of comes back to that whole morale issue of, of laying people off. Right. You’ve gotta do, what’s gonna keep the morale, um, high, but I’ll at the same time, get the results that you want. So one good way to look at things is, uh, let’s say you get a crummy outcome from something.

That, uh, that transpired. Would you go back and do all the same things again? No. In, in knowing that outcome was giving the same and used an example about a software developer, finding a bug and, you know, a three month delay turned in into a nine month delay. Yeah. That was really crummy. You could reprimand that person or you can look and say, Hey, we had to fix this thing.

We [00:20:00] would’ve never scaled without that fix. So that person needs to get rewarded. It’s it’s a tough thing to do as a leader, but, um, having a good framework to look. At those things through is, is helpful. And I think this helps with that. Yeah. And

[00:20:12] Anthony: I think that to, to be able to hold people accountable, whether that’s to the success or the failure, it starts with embedding a culture that’s based in the process and not the results.

And that’s by all. And I’m reading a book right now by bill Walsh called score, takes care of itself where it’s all about this concept of like, um, rewarding the, the, the day to day actions, the consistency and not the, the results of the. And because it is one thing to like, talk about that, but then if you just like, um, randomly reprimand or reward people retroactively for these things, but it’s not an ingrained part of the culture, then people just get that whiplash again that we’re talking about before, where it’s like, the clarity is super important.

So totally agree. Tots, tots agree, uh, with Benjamin. All right. My number four [00:21:00] is. When, when Ben would talk to mediocre CEOs about like, why they were successful, they’d always say things around like, oh, is our brilliant strategy, or is this, this particular innovation, this thing that we did differently. And when he would talk to like superior CEOs, the thing that they would almost inevitably say is, yeah, we just didn’t quit.

And so I thought that was really interesting because a lot of the people that I know that are really, really successful, they also have a high degree of humility. And like self-awareness to say like, yeah, we weren’t anything special. We didn’t do anything particularly better or worse in the competition.

We just didn’t give up. And I think just that one trait of, uh, persistence will win the day in, in the, in the majority of business scenarios where as long as you don’t quit, you. You haven’t lost. And as long as you don’t quit, you’re still in the game. You still have at bats. And I think that’s like the best framework [00:22:00] because it’s like in, in football, the game ends when the time ends.

Right. But in tennis, the game doesn’t end until somebody scores the requisite number of points. And so you could be down like a hundred to one in tennis. You can still come back and win. There is no time limit as long as you don’t quit. And as long as you. Playing the points, assuming windows start winning those points at a certain point before the other person gets to the end.

You still have a chance. And that’s the thing with business. As long as you’re still in the game, you have a chance.

[00:22:29] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think a lot of people kinda lack that. That mentality. They like the quick fix, uh, the quick, um, uh, satisfaction. Um, and they don’t really, they can’t just kind of run at something long term, not knowing whether it’s gonna take a year or 50 years to get there.

I think a lot of people kind of struggle with that, but it kind of ties into my next one, which was, um, a concept of lead bullets and silver bullets. And, um, basically the, the author says that, you know, silver bullets are kind of like a [00:23:00] magic solution, right? Like, um, Like a sweeping earth shattering, you know, kind of solution you find to a problem that just solve, solves everything like a magic pill and lead bullets are just tough work.

Like the grunt work of getting things done. And, uh, you know, he had a story where he was talking about, um, you know, someone calling him out on spending way too much time looking for silver bullets when. Uh, they just need to buckle down, fix their product, do the hard work. It’s gonna take a really long time, but there’s no like quick fix ma magic solution, uh, thing.

They’re gonna find that’s gonna solve it all. They just have to do all the work. And, uh, I think that’s true for a lot of people. A lot of the time, a lot of people are running around looking for quick fixes and like that, that, that one thing that’s gonna change everything for them. When in reality, they just need to buckle down, do the work day in and day out.

It’s gonna take a really long time, but they just need to. Grind it out, baby.

[00:23:54] Anthony: Boom. If I hire more lead bullets, um, and I, I actually skipped over this. Um, but my [00:24:00] last point was actually almost identical to your previous point, not this one, this previous one, but the one before that, um, it was around building a culture that rewards not punishes.

Um, people getting problems out into the open and it reminded me a lot of Ray Dalio in their meritocracy. It’s all about, uh, openly talking with candor about the things that are not, not going well. And I thought that was really interesting. I wasn’t gonna harp on it cuz you kind of touched on it, but it is interesting that it’s one thing to say, Hey, we’re a culture that prides ourself on like bringing problems to the top.

But then if you look at the reality of like how you treat those people and like what’s the real, what actually occurs when somebody brings a problem that like sidetracks the entire operation it’s, it’s probably not as supportive as, as most people. Would hope. So, just wanted to throw that one back in there, cuz I kind of skimmed over it a little bit, but overall, those are, those are 10 takeaways.

That’s the hard thing about hard things. That’s the whole made easy, made simple make quick. You’re welcome. [00:25:00] now remember guys and gals. If you got any value out of this, we would really love it. Really appreciate it. If you leave some feedback, go leave a review. It truly helps us with the algorithm, spreading the word, helping us get this podcast out to more people that you think it could help.

That would be awesome. If you know somebody that would get some value out of it, give it, uh, share it with them on Facebook or Instagram, wherever you’re listening to this YouTube, YouTube. And that’s that’s it? That’s that’s all. I, I don’t know what else to say. Goodbye. Yeah, you

[00:25:24] Dan: can leave and we’re done.

Yeah. At any point, just turn us off.

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