For today’s episode, we will be discussing where we would invest, if we had to go somewhere else.
Come with us on a magical/theoretical ride where Minnesota has kicked us out. Where would we go? Where would we invest? And then, more importantly, what is our thought process of what lead us to one market over another market?
We will talk about these things…and more in another episode of Multifamily Investing Made Simple.
“ If we were looking at a new market, we’d try to find a market that historically isn’t the hottest market, but that we know is going to consistently perform regardless.” – Anthony Vicino
“ It would be great to have a home that’s a vacation home, that’s also an income property.” – Dan Krueger
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Anthony Vicino: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to multifamily investing made simple, the podcast, it’s all about taking the complexity out of real estate investing so that you can take action today. I’m your host. Anthony Vicino of Invictus Capital, joined by Dan, also of Invictus Capital, Kruger.
Dan Krueger: [00:00:27] That is very accurate.
Anthony Vicino: [00:00:29] Also true, true double. True fact. Mm-hmm. I tried to take credit the other day for Invictus Capital Seoul. I was like, I built this by myself. No, actually, I did. But one of her employees did. That was that was pretty funny.
Dan Krueger: [00:00:42] Yeah, yeah.
Anthony Vicino: [00:00:44] Well, they they made the claim to another employee, to a new employee, which is it was pretty funny. Ex employee. Yeah. So funny things. This is the beauty of running and building businesses is and I’ve talked about this before on a lot of other podcasts where the hardest thing about business is people like hiring, hiring, dealing with vendors, customers, all of it. It’s very, very difficult because people are people and people are weird. Most people are beautiful, but some people are weird.
Dan Krueger: [00:01:15] So anyway, what was the weird ones that find you?
Anthony Vicino: [00:01:17] Yeah, I have a girl. I’m a magnet for a weird which says, I’m probably also weird. I know for a fact I am hard to work with. I get this. I’m sitting here barefoot. I get that. I have my foibles. You use the word foibles.
Dan Krueger: [00:01:32] I mean,
Anthony Vicino: [00:01:32] Yeah. Correctly, though. Right. Yeah, it could be worse, I could use it wrong, you could I could could foibles. I could just use it randomly, too. All right. Enough witty banter, or at least just enough banter. Let’s let’s lay the groundwork today. We’re going to talk about if you were to kick Dan and Anthony out of Minneapolis. And you said no more Minnesota investing for you. Oof. Oh God. Where would we go? What market would we go to? Where would we invest? So that’s going to be the topic of today’s conversation. It’s actually pretty interesting. I posed this to Dan before we went live, and he looked at me like a poor deer in a headlight. He’s like, I don’t I don’t know if I if I knew I would probably already be investing there. So I’m interested to see in the interim what you’ve come up with. But before we get there? Hmm. If I know anything about you, Daniel Kruger. Daniel Russell, George George. Well, because there’s an F1 driver named George Russell.
Dan Krueger: [00:02:36] Ok, so not him. So that was a deep
Anthony Vicino: [00:02:39] That was a deep pull on that one. It didn’t quite land. But OK, so Daniel Russell, no. George Daniel George Kruger. Hmm. What is your bad investing advice today?
Dan Krueger: [00:02:50] Today, today? Oh, today, today, today. Yeah, today it is. Find the investments with the lowest cost of investing
Anthony Vicino: [00:03:01] Cheap penny stocks.
Dan Krueger: [00:03:02] No, not penny stocks. You know, more like transactional cost, right? So if you’re looking at like ETFs and mutual funds, you’re going to see something like an expense ratio. And if you start reading about like, OK, how to how to invest and all this stuff you’re going to find very frequently is a lot of a lot. A lot of people talking about, you know, articles or blogs or whatever about how you want to try to find those products that have the lowest expenses associated with them. So for an example. One option is you’ve got a real estate syndication with a three percent acquisition fee and a three percent asset management fee. And your other option is the Vanguard Index Fund, just the S&P five hundred with a zero point zero for expense ratio. Which one’s better? What do you think?
Anthony Vicino: [00:03:54] I abstained from answering.
Dan Krueger: [00:03:56] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Most people would be like, Wow, that first option sounds really expensive. And this is something that’s come up with some newer investors over the years as we’ve talked to them and talked about what the the business model is and how it works and what the fees are that we get paid, which is an important topic to discuss. And some people hear that that number and they’re kind of thinking back to ETFs and mutual funds are thinking that sounds really high. But really, that doesn’t matter. At the end of the day, what really matters is what are the returns that end up in your pocket net of fees? Because at the end of the day, these are two passive options for you. So how much the guy that’s running the deal is getting compensated to do it is kind of irrelevant because either way, you’re putting capital in, you’re putting no work or effort in. So if a lower expense option is going to yield you seven percent a year and a higher expense option like a syndication is going to yield you 20 percent a year. Why the heck would you go with the ETF? Because of a lower expense ratio, if the dollars that end up in your pocket at the end of the day aren’t going to be as much?
Anthony Vicino: [00:05:02] This is I’m going to take a different spin on this one because I was having a conversation two weeks ago with a guy who was doing his first syndication and he had gone to his investors and he presented his deal in the worst way possible. What he did was he went to his investors and said, Hey, for fifty thousand dollars, you get a seven percent ownership stake in this deal and it’s going to generate X return. And that’s a mistake because from that moment onward, his investors were fixated on the percent of ownership of the deal a seven percent or 10 percent or whatever. And they thought, Hey, I’m bringing all this capital to the deal, I’m bringing all the capital. I should get more ownership percentage. And I told him I was like, Well, you made a fundamental mistake because you led with ownership percentage. And now that’s the red flag that the bull sees when in reality, the ownership percentage doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if you only own one percent of the deal or if you own ninety nine percent of the deal. What matters is how much are you getting in return? So if you’re getting a 20 percent return, it doesn’t matter if you own one percent of the deal or if you own ninety nine percent, 20 percent return is really good. Now, if you’re only getting a 10 percent return, you could look at that and be like, Well, this isn’t just not generating enough return. For me, owning more of the deal isn’t going to change that fact. You’re just going to you’re just going to have more ownership. You’re just going to get net more money, but not necessarily a higher rate of percentage return. So that’s the thing that’s really interesting is like don’t get caught up in in the metrics that don’t really matter, like fees or ownership percentage. Look at the bottom line how much are your dollars making for you? Because that’s really what we’re looking at when we’re looking at an investment, how hard can our money work for us?
Dan Krueger: [00:06:48] Yeah, yeah. I think kind of using this example makes makes it make a lot more sense for me. If I were to invest with, say, like the best investor there was in history, right?
Anthony Vicino: [00:07:00] I know for me, I’m sitting next to you. You can say my name.
Dan Krueger: [00:07:03] That’s OK. Aside from you? Ok. Aside from you, I’d say, like Paul Tudor Jones or somebody who’s just like a legend, right? If I could give him money and he says, you’re going to make a 40 percent a year. Great. Great. Great great. But he’s going to take 70 percent of the profits. My 40 percent a year I’m getting is net of all those. I’m fine with that. You call the work. He’s the one that’s generating the return. If he’s taking 90 percent and there’s still enough for me to have a 40 percent rate of return on my money. Great all day long. I could care less. And I think that’s the thing that people need to be thinking about, just like Anthony said. How much money are you making? What’s the return on your investment and what’s the return on your time? And if that meets your criteria that you’re trying to hit? Great winning. You know, I think those fees actually can become more important when you’re dealing with something that’s kind of like a commodity, like an ETF or a mutual fund. Like at that point, it’s it’s you’ve got your pick of the litter. So yeah, they’re all pretty comparable to just go with one of the lowest fee.
Anthony Vicino: [00:07:57] But anyway, yeah, there’s no active management in that equation. So you should just go find whatever has the lowest transactional cost. Exactly. So, but this is an important conversation because I think a lot of times as investors, we can get bamboozled a little bit by the wrong things, the wrong metrics, the wrong KPIs, and just never hurts just to come back and say OK. At the end of the day, what really matters in this in this equation is how much of the deal that I actually own is how much I’m paying in fees, or is it how much I’m actually making the deal. So those are questions that you got to answer for yourself. I can’t answer them for you. So let’s get to the meat that tasty T-Bone. Hmm. Of a topic. I don’t know why I led like this, but here we are now.
Dan Krueger: [00:08:42] I can’t go back now.
Anthony Vicino: [00:08:43] No, we can’t. Ok, so Dan, let’s imagine a world come, come with me on a magical story ride into our mind’s eye where for some reason. Minnesota has kicked us out. They’re like, yeah, it was, you’re too tan, right? You just came back from the Bahamas and you’re too tan and they’re like, You can’t come back here. It’s weird. You know, where would you go? Where would you invest? And and then more importantly, walk me through the thought process of like, what would lead you to one market over another market? What what would your what would your process look like?
Dan Krueger: [00:09:21] Yeah. Well, I guess first step for me would be, what is my outcome? Oh, that’s a good way. That’s a good way to start. It’s a good way to start.
Anthony Vicino: [00:09:28] Yeah, and it’s on brand. We always talk about that.
Dan Krueger: [00:09:30] Yeah, and that would take you down probably one or two paths. One is because I’ve been kind of trying to answer this question for myself on a personal level. It would be great to have a home that’s a vacation home, that’s also an income property. I’m not using it. So right on one hand, which isn’t really what we’re talking about today. I’d be thinking, where do I want to go on a regular basis for the next several years? That might be a good spot for a little investment property that I can use as a vacation home and then VRBO and Airbnb and the rest of the time, right? That’s one thing that we’re talking about. If I had to actually take my my active investment business out of Minnesota, we’re going to move Invictus. We’ve got a transplant Invictus and we’ve got to have our our investment portfolio will be somewhere else. I don’t know the answer to that question because I don’t spend a ton of time looking at every other market that’s out there. However, I know the the strategy I would use to find that next city or next metro area, and that’s what I’m going to talk about here. Right now, we’re in a great little market. It’s performed well and we’re vertically integrated, so we’re very focused on where we’re at now. But if we had to move, there’s a few key factors that I would want to look at to help me determine where I’d want to go. And the number one factor I’d want to look at is population population growth, and I want to see people coming into an area.
Dan Krueger: [00:10:54] I want to see more people coming into an area that are leaving the area, and you can find this data. There are certain cities around the U.S. and around the world where there’s more people leaving than there are coming in. And this could be a product of less people being born and people are kind of dying off or could be a high death state. I mean, maybe there’s people just aren’t reproducing there anymore, or maybe they’re actually leaving for other reasons, right? We just saw this recently with New York and California, with some, you know, high tax areas where those those things got so frustrating for people that they went to low tax areas, right? So that’s something to be aware of. You want to make sure that there is population growth happening and there’s a lot of other stuff that matters. But that’s one of the very first things I would look at because I like to take a macro view to things. They start at the top and I work my way down and one of the most macro views you can take from investing, from analyzing potential markets to invest in is just population growth and the demographics there. And what’s happening are people coming in? Are they leaving? How old are they? How much do they make? And we’ll get to the rest of that. But that’s the first thing we look at.
Anthony Vicino: [00:12:04] No, I think that’s a really good one. And honestly, it’s the most important one for me, and it’s actually how I was one of the top three things I would look for when choosing my city. So for me, I’ll tell you my city here in a little bit, but starting with the question What’s my outcome like? I would start with the question like, I’m not interested in working to live or I’m sorry. So to live, to work right where you’re just moving to a place for the sake of, Oh, this is the hot market, this is where the investment returns are going to be the best. And for us, like we’re vertically integrated and assuming we had to go back to zero and start all over in a new market, we’d probably build it in the same way, like with in-house property management. So that would presume that we’re going to invest in a market that we live in. So my first question to myself would be like, OK, where do I want to live? Like, forget all the other metrics, like what are some places that I would want to live? And for me, I know some things about myself that, you know, having lived in California, I realized I need seasons. I need four seasons.
Anthony Vicino: [00:13:07] Having lived in the mountains, I know I really like mountains. I really liked nature. I like having like Minnesota’s great because we don’t have mountains, but we have lakes and we have a lot of a lot of greenery, got some bluffs, we got some bluffs. And so we got a lot of things like, I’m like, OK, so I need some of that too. I need to be in a place for myself. That’s not super hot. I don’t do good and look at me. People do. I look like a guy that does good in heat. No, the sun is not good. He’s not my friend. So I need to go someplace where there’s probably not a lot of sun. And so like and I know this because I lived in Nashville for a summer and that was the worst decision of my life. So like as I started putting these things together, it starts to lead me towards like a general geography. Like, I’m probably not going to go in the Sun Belt, right? Like, just the name itself is scary to me. So and I’m probably not going to go to the coast because those aren’t great. And. Investment cities, but so that kind of leads me to some mountainous regions, right?
Dan Krueger: [00:14:00] So that’s actually a good place to start to because I’d bet that a lot of the things that you’re listing off here, there’s going to be a lot of other people that share those opinions. So I’m sure that the population movement around the U.S. probably aligns. I mean, unless you’re just a complete weirdo and you’re like the opposite of what everyone else likes, that there’s probably going to be some other people.
Anthony Vicino: [00:14:20] I’m going to Wyoming people. Ok, I’m not going to Wyoming. But so like as you’re as I’m going through this and I’m thinking about population growth and I’m thinking about where do I want to live? And like, you know, what is a thing that would attract like quality of life, other people? And then I’m looking at, you know, things like median income and like quality of life and cost of living. And so you look at that and you think like, OK, some really obvious answers that first come to mind would be like Denver or just Colorado in general. Like Fort Worth, there’s all sorts of places in Colorado or Salt Lake City. But the problem for me is that those cities, while they’re very hot, they’re also very saturated and very, very hard to get into. So like, the barrier to entry might be very difficult. So then I would be looking, OK, where is a city that has huge population growth? Hits all those other boxes for me and is maybe a little bit under the radar, but that has like a long term forecast that I can get behind and there is one city. Des Moines. It’s Moines, Iowa, no, it’s not Des Moines.
Dan Krueger: [00:15:19] It’s Boise. I’m not making money.
Anthony Vicino: [00:15:22] I just know I’m making fun of Des Moines. No, actually, it’s a pretty good. Actually agree. It’s actually a great investment market. Yeah. I would go to Boise. Boise, Idaho. If you think about like and if you don’t know, Boise, Idaho in the last four years has, like two of the four years has been ranked number one for population growth. So ton of population growth, a lot of lot of jobs moving in there. There’s a university. And if you look at how it’s situated, it’s actually like a mini Denver, right? It’s it’s ringed by mountains. It’s cheaper. And so like I think a lot of investors are starting to get turned on to it. But I’m not saying like, go invest in Boise. I’m not saying that. That’s what I heard. I’m really trying to go through like that thought process of like, what would we look for?
Dan Krueger: [00:16:02] Well, that’s good. I think that’s I think I’m going to say it again because I think it’s worth saying the mental exercise you went through with that makes a lot of sense. Instead of starting with quantitative metrics and data, starting with what you want, that’s going to make you happy because then I mean, even if you don’t make any money, at least you’re in a place. You like me, you’re like being there and you could just sit outside and look at the mountains and pretend like you had before.
Anthony Vicino: [00:16:27] Yeah, it’s better to be poor in the mountains and rich in the gutter.
Dan Krueger: [00:16:30] Yeah. But I’d say, you know, a lot of the stuff I’d be looking for are going to be things that I’m trying to emulate that we have here in Minnesota, right? So if we get kicked out which we’re going to get kicked out soon, it’s only a matter of time. We’re going to
Anthony Vicino: [00:16:43] Try to recreate the way we operate
Dan Krueger: [00:16:47] Somewhere else. And one of the best things about this area that I’d want to have in the next place that we go to when we inevitably get evicted. Most of the state is
Anthony Vicino: [00:16:57] The eviction moratorium. That’s on our side, right?
Dan Krueger: [00:16:59] That’s God. Damn. Yeah. So our days are numbered. Oh dear is the job market breadth and variety, right? That’s one of the best things that I think we have. It’s in our area is we have an incredibly diverse and balanced spread of different industries in our area. Huge medical presence, huge university presence. More Fortune 500 companies per capita than anywhere else in the region. And then, you know, all the other stuff that we’ve talked about as far as population growth, all that. That’s all great. But like the the the job breadth is something that is makes this a strong market, but most importantly, I think makes it a less volatile market compared to other areas. Yeah. So you can think of Detroit as the polar opposite when the auto industry was going well. Detroit was doing awesome. Real estate was doing great. As soon as that industry hit a speed bump, pun intended. That’s true.
Anthony Vicino: [00:18:06] That was really bad. Don’t give him anything.
Dan Krueger: [00:18:08] I didn’t intend the pun. I just kind of back.
Anthony Vicino: [00:18:10] You just kind of beep beep beep backed up into it. Was that it was also I don’t know if it’s a pun, but it was something.
Dan Krueger: [00:18:16] These are bad jokes, that’s what these are. Yeah. So basically, if you have the complete opposite of Detroit, you can hedge off that risk where if there’s an issue with that one industry, the entire local economy just takes a bath and it’s taken a long time for them to recover. Whereas if you look at our metro area and other metro areas that are similar with the breadth of different industries, what you’ll find is when their rocky economic times, those areas do really well, at least relative to everybody else in the U.S. So that’s one of the the other big things that are going to be looking for is diverse job industries.
Anthony Vicino: [00:18:51] Yeah, the I was at a conference yesterday and there was a guy on a panel who said something I thought was really interesting. He said he was a I don’t remember exactly what he was. He worked for a bank of some sort. He said, I believe Minneapolis is the best risk adjusted city for investing in the country. And I was like, OK, bold statement cotton. Let’s let’s see how. Let’s see where he backs this up. What he said, what was really interesting and this is coming off the back of the fact that if you guys pay attention to the numbers, Minneapolis in the Twin Cities did not have a great twenty twenty one in terms of like year over year rent growth compared to other cities in the country. Not a big deal because what he pointed out and I was like, this actually is a very smart and insightful observation, is that our median income in Minnesota is close to a hundred thousand or in Twin Cities is close to a hundred thousand. It’s very, very high. And in fact, Minneapolis Twin Cities area has one of the lowest cost to rent relative to income. It is about 20 percent, whereas for most in most markets.
Anthony Vicino: [00:20:00] When you talk about like, how much did you spend of your monthly income on living, it’s usually around 30 percent. Thirty five percent, right? So what that means is that in this market, 20 percent of people’s income is going towards their housing, which means that there is a huge amount of margin that can be absorbed still for rent to continue to grow. Right. So what that means is if rent doesn’t grow like there’s still a lot of room there, there’s there’s potential. Whereas when you look at these high rent growth markets, say in Florida, where there’s like 10, 15, 20 percent year over year rent growth every year, but their median income is not scaling proportional. The question becomes how long can that market absorb 20 percent rent hikes without a comparable income improvement? And it’s like, Well, when you put it like that, you are going to hit a brick wall at some point unless something changes macro economically in those markets. And it may very well be the case, but that’s something that we can’t necessarily see with our crystal ball. So I thought that was actually a really interesting perception.
Dan Krueger: [00:21:05] Yeah. And for people who don’t know, don’t know this one. When somebody says risk adjusted returns, what they’re actually saying is you take the return stream from an investment and they need discounted proportionally for how how much downside volatility you have. And so that means if you are investing in something and you make 20 percent over this time period, but during that time period, you actually had a drawdown of like maybe 30 percent or something like that. And then you compare that to an investment where you make 10 percent over that same time period, but your biggest drawdown was only two percent. The second one with the lower returns is actually going to be better on a risk adjusted basis because of the lack of the drawdown. So that’s the concept that Anthony Sakowin said risk adjusted returns. It means that the returns aren’t going to be as high as elsewhere, but there’s going to be far less downside volatility, which is important because
Anthony Vicino: [00:22:00] In which plays out in our market. Historically, when you look at the numbers like that, just
Dan Krueger: [00:22:06] When the rest of the country is having a trend upswing, when, when, when things are hitting the financial meltdown, yeah, the rest of the U.S., we just go flat. Yeah. And then to keep going back up wherever else, it’s like a big dip and then back up.
Anthony Vicino: [00:22:21] So all that’s to say is like if we were looking at a new market, we’d try to find a market that historically isn’t the sexiest or the hottest market, but that we can look at and say that’s going to consistently perform regardless.
Dan Krueger: [00:22:31] It does not sound sexy, so I think that’s our
Anthony Vicino: [00:22:33] Boys is not sexy, you know, and I’d have to do some historical backtesting on it to see, like, I haven’t like dove into this because I’m not going to go invest in Boise at the moment. But just as I go through the thought experiment, I know, I know. But as I go through the thought experiment, like hopefully this was enlightening. If you’re somebody who’s out there, maybe a point in their investment career where they’re thinking of uprooting so that they can go be an active investor in some market because I know a lot of people who are at that point where they’re like, Where should I move to because I want to go and look to the hottest market?
Dan Krueger: [00:23:03] A lot of people uprooting right now, whether they’re going to do it for investing purposes or not, there’s a lot of people moving around. So this is probably apropos for at least somebody.
Anthony Vicino: [00:23:11] So that is. You know what, City and why you didn’t actually give us a city, so give me a city name a city. When you said Des Moines, I missed it by the Moon.
Dan Krueger: [00:23:20] No, I honestly don’t know. I don’t spend much time looking at other markets all that serious. I mean, out of curiosity sometimes. But I would want to actually do some research before I provide an answer. So maybe on a future episode, I’ll come back to this list of list that, well, I’m not just going to find one.
Anthony Vicino: [00:23:39] Ok, fair enough. Fair enough.
Dan Krueger: [00:23:40] I mean, unless Boise is as amazing as you say, and it’s just so far above the rest. I mean,
Anthony Vicino: [00:23:45] Let’s just say, I think you’re going to end up in Boise or Reno. Reno. Yep. You just seem like a Reno guy. Biggest little city. Biggest little Kruger in the world. Yeah, OK, maybe I don’t know. Ok, OK, let’s transition the show now to. The book recommendation of the week,
Dan Krueger: [00:24:05] You got one. I do.
Anthony Vicino: [00:24:07] Is this just to just to be clear, just to be clear, the last two recommendations you’ve given are books that you hadn’t completed yet. So is this going to be a book that you’ve read read? No, you’re in the process of reading or you’re thinking about reading.
Dan Krueger: [00:24:19] I am really excited about it. Ok, OK. There’s certain books that I will recommend before I actually crack them because I am so confident in the quality of the material. And this one is no exception. It’s big debt crisis by retaliating, Oh my god, this one.
Anthony Vicino: [00:24:33] Yeah. Let’s get to oh, I
Dan Krueger: [00:24:34] Bought them both at the same time. Ok, so OK, listen to our last episode. I recommended principles for dealing with Change your world order, Why Nations Succeed and Fail by Ray Dalio. I did get a little bit into that. It’s a very busy week. Yeah, and it didn’t have a lot of time to actually read, but I got these books. I got maybe like ten pages into changing world order and could just tell immediately that it was going to be amazing right up my alley. Ray Dalio love his stuff. Love principles. The big debt crisis is going to be big debt crisis.
Anthony Vicino: [00:25:08] Can you enunciate just a bit more on that? Absolutely. Ok. Because I don’t know what what our listeners just heard, but I know what I heard.
Dan Krueger: [00:25:17] Yes, the big debt crisis there. I’m psyched about just because I’m an econ geek. I’m a finance geek and I’m a radio geek. And you say you read this one or no?
Anthony Vicino: [00:25:29] Yeah, I’ve read this one, too. Yeah. And there’s a it’s good. I love Ray Dalio. I mean, I’m the one that told you to go read these books.
Dan Krueger: [00:25:35] Well, to be fair, I wasn’t listening when you said, that’s right.
Anthony Vicino: [00:25:38] So you actually never listen to my book recommendations and then you circle around and finally read them and you’re like, This is the greatest book. You know, like I know I told you,
Dan Krueger: [00:25:45] This is not the first time this has happened. Anthony will recommend something to me. I will just completely ignore him, which I always do.
Anthony Vicino: [00:25:52] That’s fair. Or as you
Dan Krueger: [00:25:53] Should find that thing on my own. Come back excited to tell him about it. And he’s like, I told you about that three months ago.
Anthony Vicino: [00:25:58] Told you about this. What are you doing? Another one. It’s not a book by Ray Dalio, but it is like a memo or a paper that they put out, which is their stance on bitcoin. I can’t remember what it’s titled, but something like that. If you go Google it, you can get the PDF. It’s really interesting because he talks a lot about, you know, gold and these reserve currency concepts and its like, what role does bitcoin and cryptocurrency play in the new world order moving forward? And it’s a question that we all need to be asking ourselves because, you know, who knows what the future holds, but it’s probably not more of the same. It’s probably going to be something a little bit different. The future is likely to change. So. And coming from a guy like Ray Dalio, anything he says should probably be listened to, at least to some degree. Yeah, go check it out. It’s a short read. It’s a short little article. It’s good. So that’s going to do it for us guys and gals and people that are neither. We appreciate you taking the time out of your day to come and listen to us banter, to rant, to rave, to pontificate wildly. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to share our thoughts on what city you should maybe move to and why. And before you leave, if you enjoyed the episode, just go over to iTunes and leave a review. Just drop one in there and just say, I like that episode that was really good. Keep it up, guys. That would mean the world to us. And also just like that statement that exact same. Nothing else. Nothing else. Five stars. Thank you. And also remember, we’re hiring here at Invictus Capital, depending on when you’re listening to this, right? If you’re listening to this in twenty five years from now after, you know, the world has burned down and you have just found this digital archive. No, I’m sorry, we’re not hiring anymore. We are fending for our lives and this rat infested nuclear holocaust landscapes. So wish us the best,
Dan Krueger: [00:27:52] And that’s what I’m going to get out of that.
Anthony Vicino: [00:27:54] Yes, that is how it ends. It gets pretty apocalyptic. So on that dark and sad, dreary note, we love you guys and we will
[00:28:02] See you next time.